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Lack of demand, not manipulation, behind gold price drop.
CPM Managing Partner, Jeffrey Christian, says gold prices are down because investors big and small are waiting to see where the price will settle before they start buying again. A Gold Report Interview.
Posted: Sunday , 15 Dec 2013
PETALUMA, CA (The Gold Report) -
The Gold Report:
This year has been difficult for gold investors. The price went from a
high of almost $1,800/ounce ($1,800/oz) to where it is now, in the
mid-$1,200/oz range. You have written extensively about the supply and
demand forces of precious metals. What is behind the drop in the gold
price?
Jeffrey Christian:
The single most important factor has been a massive decline in the
investment demand for gold. In 2013 investors have bought about 30
million ounces (30 Moz) gold on a net basis globally. That's down from
about 39 Moz in 2012 and 31 Moz in 2011, but it is still at a very high
level compared to historic investment demand. The net purchases are down
24% because some investors are selling gold.
TGR: Are they putting their money into other investment vehicles or are they sitting on their cash?
JC: There are
people who buy gold and hold gold. One person recently told me, "I'm not
a gold investor; I'm a gold stacker." They buy gold as a long-term
portfolio diversifier, a safe haven, a hedge against financial calamity
and also an investment for other reasons. Those people have stepped back
a little bit because they want to see how low the price goes before
they buy and buy heavily again. That is also true among central bankers
this year.
But other investors who were big buyers in the
period 2007–2011 have, in fact, left. They are momentum traders who were
watching the price of gold rise, so they were buying. Now that the gold
price has been falling for two years, they've either sold or they've
gotten out of the market. There also are disenchanted investors. They
were buying gold because they thought all of this monetary accommodation
globally had to lead to hyperinflation. Or they thought that the euro,
the European Central Bank, the dollar or the U.S. Treasury would
collapse. None of that has happened and they are starting to doubt the
thesis on which they were investing in gold, so they are going someplace
else.
And then there are the general investors who
probably represent 90% of the gold investment community, people who
invest across assets and gold is just one asset in a diversified
portfolio. Those people are refocusing on real estate in the U.S. to
some extent and the stock market, which has been very strong.
TGR: You
mentioned the theory that quantitative easing (QE) would impact the gold
price, either by deflating the dollar or creating hyperinflation. Does
QE impact gold? Would the end of QE impact it negatively?
JC: Yes, monetary accommodations can affect gold in several ways. What we saw in 2009–2011 was that investors assumed it would be inflationary and bought gold in anticipation of that. The inflationary consequences of all that monetary accommodation have not yet arrived and, frankly, may not arrive. Investors bought gold in anticipation of that inflation, based on false assumptions about the relationship between monetary policy and inflation that were not grounded in fact or good economic theories. Now they are selling, or at least not buying, in reaction to the lack of inflationary reactions to the increased money supply.
JC: Yes, monetary accommodations can affect gold in several ways. What we saw in 2009–2011 was that investors assumed it would be inflationary and bought gold in anticipation of that. The inflationary consequences of all that monetary accommodation have not yet arrived and, frankly, may not arrive. Investors bought gold in anticipation of that inflation, based on false assumptions about the relationship between monetary policy and inflation that were not grounded in fact or good economic theories. Now they are selling, or at least not buying, in reaction to the lack of inflationary reactions to the increased money supply.
In addition, QE or monetary accommodation can have
a direct effect on gold by being inflationary. If the money that the
Federal Reserve is pumping into the banking system was being lent by the
banks and being spent by the corporations and individual consumers
borrowing that money, it would have a much more positive effect on the
real economy. It also would have inflationary pressures. A combination
of those factors would drive gold prices higher. That hasn't been
happening because the monetary accommodation we've seen the last five
years has been going to shore up bank balance sheets. It hasn't been
lent and it hasn't been spent. Therefore, it hasn't had that
inflationary consequence, and it hasn't pushed gold prices up.
Go back to late 1982–1983, the depth of the
previous deepest recession in the post-war period, when Brazil, Mexico
and Argentina were about to default. The gold price had fallen from
$850/oz in January 1980 to $290/oz by mid-1982. It had given up
three-quarters of its value over two years. Then-Federal Reserve Board
Chairman Paul Volcker and the world central bankers opened the monetary
sluices. The money was lent into the economy. The price of gold went
from $290/oz to $500/oz in six months because investors saw all that
monetary accommodation and assumed it had to be hyperinflationary. By
Q1/83, we were out of the recession because that money was lent and
spent.
Volcker started selling bonds, sopping up that
excess liquidity, and we never had the inflationary consequence. Gold
went from $500/oz in January 1983 back down to $285/oz by 1985 as a
result. The reality is that monetary accommodation doesn't have to be
inflationary. A lot of people, I think, misunderstood that over the past
few years. What you're seeing now is a desire to understand the
relationship between money supply, inflation and gold prices because it
hasn't been as simplistic as a lot of people believe.
TGR: A lot of the experts we talk to at The Gold Report
say it's really just a matter of time before the banks feel confident
enough to start lending and that's when the hyperinflation will become
apparent. Do you disagree?
JC: Not necessarily. Some of those people have been saying this for 30 years. I know a guy who started writing a newsletter in 1981, and his first newsletter said all of this monetary accommodation is going to bring hyperinflation and the bond market is going to collapse. Someday he probably will be right, but in the last 32 years, he hasn't been right.
JC: Not necessarily. Some of those people have been saying this for 30 years. I know a guy who started writing a newsletter in 1981, and his first newsletter said all of this monetary accommodation is going to bring hyperinflation and the bond market is going to collapse. Someday he probably will be right, but in the last 32 years, he hasn't been right.
If money starts getting lent and spent, that would
strengthen the economy. Then we could start seeing inflationary
pressures. But the Fed has this tremendous capacity to sell bonds to sop
up that inflationary excess liquidity. It has $3 trillion in bonds
sitting on its portfolio, and it can always go to the Treasury the way
Volcker did in 1983 and ask the Treasury to print more bonds. Even when
that money starts becoming mobilized, it may not have an inflationary
consequence. We've seen it repeatedly, in 1982, 1987, 1991, 1997 and
2001. Money going into the economy may not have the inflationary effects
that people who look at it in a less dynamic analysis are saying that
it will have. It's not necessarily going to happen that way.
TGR: Based on
your description of the investment demand for gold right now, how do you
explain the periods of heavy buying and selling in 2013 that led to
gold prices declining as much as $40/oz in a short period of time?
JC: What you are
seeing is algorithmic trading. We saw this on April 12. We saw a
tremendous amount of selling coming into the over-the-counter forward
market, the spot market and the COMEX within a very short period and
that led to prices falling sharply. If we disaggregate that, what we see
is it was actually more than 1,000 independent entities all trading on
technical price chart points, many of them using computerized trading
programs that all came in selling at the same time.
We saw a similar situation in early October, when
about 2.4 Moz of gold futures were sold in a 10-minute period on Oct. 1.
The price, in fact, fell $24/oz in that 10-minute period, and it fell
about $40/oz over the course of that day. A lot of people looked at it
and said, OK, this is some large entity doing that selling. And some of
the people, because they're conspiracy theorists, said this is someone
trying to suppress the gold price. Neither set of conclusions was right,
however.
If we take several steps back and do a good
analysis, we find several things. Over the course of October, there were
seven 10-minute periods with abnormally high volumes of COMEX gold
trading. Of those seven periods, four were buying events based on the
expectation that prices were going to rise. And, in fact, prices rose.
That proves this is not about trying to push the price of gold down.
It is also not a single entity. In each instance
hundreds of entities are buying and selling. Most of them are
algorithmic traders. A lot of them have computerized trading programs,
so it's not even an individual saying sell; it's the computer just
triggering sell orders. And they all are using the same or similar
programs, and they're all looking at the same price point as a buy or a
sell signal.
It is also not isolated to gold. Gold people tend
to be auro-centric. They look at the world through gold-tinted glasses.
If we look at the overall commodities market, we see that this kind of
algorithmic trading and this kind of concentrated sales and purchases at
trigger points is occurring across commodities. It's actually a bigger
volatility issue in the grain markets than it is in gold and silver.
Then if we take another step back, we find out
it's not even limited to commodities. It's happening in currencies,
fixed incomes, bonds and stocks. Algorithmic trading is causing bunches
of trades both on the upside and on the downside across markets. So it's
clearly not a single entity. It's clearly not aimed at a one-way
trade—let's push the price of gold down. And it's clearly not even
related to gold. It is a number of people trying to make money by
trading on a short-term basis across financial assets.
TGR: If algorithmic trading is magnifying the swings in an already volatile market, does it need to be regulated?
JC: That's a
tough philosophical and regulatory issue. I think that we should have a
free market and it should be regulated. There may be some way that we
can put brakes in there. We have had brakes in other markets. But who is
going to be the arbiter to say, OK, you're allowed to trade and this
guy isn't allowed to trade, or only limited size trades are allowed. As
we speak, India is struggling with these definitions about what
constitutes illegal speculation compared to legal investing. Ironically,
many of the people who are demanding controls on algorithmic trading
are the same people who don't trust government officials, so the
decisions about who will intervene, who will make the rules, who will be
allowed to trade and who will be excluded are much more complex than
whether or not algo trading should be banned.
TGR: Separate
from the algorithmic traders, what about the role of gold
exchange-traded products? Why was there a big selloff in those this
year?
JC: From our
analysis, we believe that gold exchange-traded funds (ETFs) attracted
investors who were new to gold, which is a good thing. But these new
gold buyers may not buy and hold the way traditional gold investors have
done. And because there is a daily reckoning in the ETF market, people
will take it as a mirror of the gold investment market sentiment even
though they don't necessarily represent the majority of gold investors.
We've seen about a 25% reduction in gold holdings in the ETFs this year.
So about a quarter of those investors have taken their chips and
they've gone back to the stock market or wherever else they came from. I
think that's what you're seeing in the ETF market.
TGR: So you think the dramatic selloff was caused by individuals new to the market who got scared?
JC: I don't know
that they got scared. In some cases, they just decided to take whatever
profits they had left. In some cases, you clearly had people who were
buying ETFs at a much higher level, and they were taking their losses
and moving on to something else. But I don't think that there was any
particularly large participant. There were some hedge funds, and there
were some companies that were using ETFs to hedge their short exposure
to gold prices that had been liquidating those positions for a variety
of reasons. But it was not any single entity that was liquidating 25 Moz
gold. It was a lot of individuals who basically had said, OK, the gold
bull market is over, at least on a cyclical basis.
TGR: So it wasn't the John Paulsons of the world changing their mind about gold and in the process pushing down the price?
JC: We did see
some large hedge funds that were using those positions. John Paulson's
position on the ETFs actually was not his core gold position. It was a
hedge of Paulson & Co.'s exposure to gold prices from those
investors in the Paulson hedge funds that had chosen to denominate their
investments in those funds in gold. Paulson's gold investments are
apart from those ETF investments. Over the years, gold prices have risen
sharply and then they came off. Paulson's funds have done well and
they've done poorly. The value of his position has fallen down in some
of his funds. A lot of people have withdrawn money.
Paulson's selling of gold ETFs has nothing to do
with that company's views about the gold market. It has to do with the
fact that people either are withdrawing funds or they don't want to
index their positions in the fund in gold anymore because the dollar is
doing well and gold is doing poorly. So those sales by those ETFs
holders do not necessarily represent a vote pro or con of gold; it's a
hedge of his position with his investors, and as his investors make a
choice, he's just unwinding his hedge.
TGR: But it does impact the market.
JC: It definitely
affects the market, but you have to understand, it's not that there's
somebody out there saying, oh my God, I do not believe in gold anymore.
At least it's not Paulson & Co. saying that. It's investors saying,
we've had a very good run in 2010 and 2011 by denominating our
investment in Paulson funds in gold because during that time, Paulson's
funds did very well and the gold price did very well. So we got a double
whammy on the positive side. Now, Paulson's funds haven't done so well,
and the gold price has plunged. So it makes sense to either take my
money out or at least re-index it so it's based on the dollar or some
other currency.
TGR: You mentioned the role of central banks buying gold. What impacts have international central banks had on the gold price?
JC: Central banks
shifted to being net buyers around 2008. They had been net sellers for
several decades, basically since around 1967. In 2010–2012, central
banks were buying about 9.5–11 Moz/year of gold. This year, they're
probably buying about 3.5–5 Moz of gold. It's just a handful of central
banks that have been significant gold buyers in the last few
years—Venezuela, the Philippines, Kazakhstan, Russia, and China in 2009,
which was a special case. Those central banks remain interested in
buying gold, with the probable exception of the People's Bank of China,
but just like investors, they are price sensitive. They are waiting to
see how low the price goes before they resume purchasing gold in
significant volumes. We think the volumes will start rising again next
year, once the gold price stops falling and starts stabilizing. We
expect the gold price to rise over the next 10 years, so we expect those
central banks to continue to buy gold over the next 10 years.
TGR: There is a
lot of controversy around both supply and demand statistics from China
and India. What statistics do you use for both investment and
fabrication uses? What trends are you seeing in those numbers?
JC: CPM Group is
in the business of developing its own estimates of supply and demand in
commodities, including gold, silver and platinum group metals. We have
been developing and maintaining our own supply and demand data since the
1970s, longer than anyone else in the market. We use our data.
In India, we are seeing a small increase in
investment demand. The government has severely limited imports of gold
except for manufacturing into jewelry that gets re-exported. It has
raised taxes to try to discourage some of the investment demand in gold.
But investors in India are still buying gold. The country has been a
major gold investment market for centuries. In fact, for the last decade
it was the largest market for gold, but China surpassed India last year
as the largest market both for jewelry fabrication and electronics, as
well as for investment products. We're seeing an acceleration of that
this year.
Our current estimate is that total demand for gold
in China is about 35 Moz this year. A lot of that occurred in January,
February and then April and May. Since that time, we've seen Chinese
investors become more price sensitive along with everybody else, waiting
for lower prices before they buy more.
Our estimate is in line with the estimates used by
the China Gold Association, CPM Group's strategic partner in China and
the major Chinese gold industry organization. It also is in line with
estimates from Chinese dealers and bullion banks that are moving gold
into, around and out of China. There have been some outrageously
unsupportable statements that gold demand in China is three times that,
or more, but these numbers are totally unsupportable based on statistics
and evidence that is available in the market, and are being pushed by
gold marketing people desperate to convince Western investors that they
should keep buying gold, and buy it from them.
TGR: Can you give me an example of some of the ways you figure out how much gold China is buying and mining?
JC: We collect
import and export data. But that misses a lot of information. So we
develop independent sources of information with major smelters,
refineries, industrial users, investment wholesale and retail outlets,
central banks, exchanges—around the world. For each major market, we
create what we call a national metal account for each metal—gold,
silver, platinum, palladium, rhodium, vanadium, aluminum, copper, all of
the metals. We put it into a model, and that gives us a rough idea of
what the size of the market is.
TGR: We've talked
about a lot of things that could impact the gold price—the supply and
demand in emerging markets, central bank buying, ETFs. Have the larger
economic trends overshadowed traditional seasonal fluctuations in demand
and price? There are the summer doldrums and the love trade buying
season that Frank Holmes talks about, but the gold price doesn't seem to be following the usual patterns anymore. Is that just being overshadowed?
JC: The
seasonality patterns are averages. Like the weather report on television
where they talk about how the normal temperature on a given day should
be 50 degrees, it's not the normal temperature; it is the average
temperature over a period. The normal range in temperature that the
average reflects might be 35 to 75 degrees. So seasonality is an average
of a wide range of occurrences.
Seasonality is always trumped by macroeconomic and
fundamental trends. If something is happening in the market, it
regularly blows away the seasonal patterns. That is what we are seeing
this year. Fundamental and macroeconomic factors are weighing gold
prices down during a period where congestion usually drives the price
temporarily higher.
TGR: In June, you
issued a qualified Buy recommendation on gold as an intermediate- to
long-term Buy. What trends are you anticipating for 2014, both in the
developed and the emerging markets?
JC: As
background, we issued a Sell recommendation on Jan. 2, 2012, for gold
and silver. Gold was trading around $1,800/oz, and we said that we
thought it would fall to $1,300/oz to $1,400/oz on an annual averaged
basis in 2013–2015 before rising again. What we said in June of this
year was that we are kind of there in terms of our downside price
targets. There is some more weakness in the market, but long-term
investors might want to buy gold if it spikes down to $1,200/oz.
Our expectation now is that the gold price will be
relatively weak for the next two or three quarters, into Q2/14 or
Q3/14. We think that this period of bearishness about gold still has a
ways to go. We're not convinced that we'll see prices fall further on an
intra-day basis, and that the $1,180/oz low that we saw in late June
may well prove to be the low. It was tested earlier this month and we
bounced off of it, at least for now. Arguably, that may well hold, but
there is a tremendous amount of bearishness about gold, and there is a
tremendous amount of bullishness about the global economy and the U.S.
economy.
In that environment, gold could be relatively
weak. Investors right now are turned off to gold and are refocused on
stocks and bonds. We think that by H2/14 investors may start refocusing
on the structural financial and economic problems facing the U.S.,
Europe, Japan, China and the world as a whole. That could lead to a
downdraft in U.S. stock prices. Combined with nasty, uncooperative
Washington politicians, and a nasty, uncooperative election, H2/14 could
lead investors to start buying gold again in higher quantities.
TGR: The silver
market is smaller and often more volatile than gold. Do you see the same
fundamentals at work there? What are you expecting for 2014?
JC: Silver is
pretty much in the same situation. We're a little less optimistic about
silver. Broadly speaking, we expect it to be the same, but because
silver is a schizophrenic metal that acts as an investment product and
an industrial commodity and both are negative at the moment. The silver
price could bounce around $18–22/oz for the next three quarters. Then it
could be a little weaker than gold in 2015. Depending on what happens
in the global economy and whether investors remain keen to add to their
silver holdings at these prices, silver could do well after 2015.
TGR: Do you think there is an ideal silver-gold ratio?
JC: No. In the
history of free metal prices, since 1968, the ratio has ranged between
16:1 and 100:1. There are absolutely no physical or economic reasons why
the ratio should be anything in particular. When people ask us where we
think the ratio is going to go, we look at our 10-year projections for
gold prices based on fundamentals in the gold market. We look at our
10-year projection in silver. We divide one by the other and come up
with the ratio. There is no real reason for a ratio to be anything.
There is very little substitutability except in the eyes of investors.
Back in 1979 we said the ratio would go to 16:1 because Nelson Bunker
Hunt thought the ratio should be 16:1. He was buying silver and selling
gold accordingly. It did hit 16:1 the day he went bankrupt.
TGR: A lot of
analysts are bullish on platinum and palladium because of country risk
to supply and possible increases in demand as the global economy
improves and people start buying cars with catalytic converters. Do you
agree with that supply and demand picture?
JC: Yes. We have
been more positive on platinum than on gold and silver, and we've been
more positive on palladium than on platinum for a couple of years. We've
been embarrassed to some extent because the prices haven't been quite
as strong as we thought. There are supply concerns in South Africa, and
those supply concerns probably will be heightened in 2014 from what they
were in 2013. So that should apply upward pressure on platinum prices
and palladium prices. We're actually already seeing relatively healthy
markets for autos in China, India, the U.S. and Europe. We're also
seeing an increase in the sales of large diesel trucks and buses. That's
important because those vehicles use more platinum relative to
palladium.
The problem with platinum and palladium is that
there has been a buildup of millions of ounces in the hands of
investors. Investors in gold, when they turn bearish on gold, tend not
to sell gold. They tend to just stop buying as much because it's a
financial asset and it's a quasi-currency in their minds. But platinum
and palladium are industrial commodities. When investors turn bearish on
them, they dump them.
One of the things we've seen since Q4/11 is that a
lot of investors who had bought platinum and palladium earlier in the
decade, in 2002 to 2008, were taking the opportunity of any rallies in
the platinum and palladium markets in 2011 and 2012 to sell into the
rallies. Now, in H2/13, they're not even waiting for rallies. They're
just selling. There is a very positive balance between supply and
fabrication demand, but a negative investor attitude. We think that will
shift at some point over the course of 2014 and you'll probably see
platinum prices move sharply higher at some point. You'll probably see
palladium prices move steadily higher from early 2014.
TGR: What does all of this mean for the junior mining equities? They've been hit even harder than the commodities in a lot of cases.
JC: Mining equity
values tend to be much more volatile than the metal prices. They are a
less liquid market, so they have a high beta to gold prices. The
juniors, in particular, are heavily exposed to that because of their
small size and lack of cash and revenue stream to get through the bad
times. They have been hit very hard over the last several years.
Investors have to be very careful and pick the
good ones, but our expectation is that mining stocks probably are close
to a cyclical low. They may go a little bit lower in H1/14 simply
because investors are going to continue to be bearish on precious metals
in general. There are some interesting opportunities to pick up stocks
that were overvalued in 2009–2010. Then wait for that investor
psychology to shift. We think it will happen over the course of 2014,
but it may be the middle to late 2014.
TGR: Thank you for your time.
JC: Thank you.
Jeffrey M. Christian
is managing partner of CPM Group. He has been a prominent analyst and
advisor on precious metals and commodities markets since the 1970s, with
work spanning precious metals, energy markets, base metals,
agricultural markets and economic analysis in general. He is the author
of "Commodities Rising: The Reality Behind the Hype and How to Really
Profit in the Commodities Market," published in 2006.
Christian founded CPM Group in 1986, spinning
off the Commodities Research Group from Goldman, Sachs & Co and its
commodities trading arm, J. Aron & Company. He has advised many of
the world's largest corporations and institutional investors on managing
their commodities price and market exposures, as well as providing
advisory services to the World Bank, United Nations, International
Monetary Fund and numerous governments.
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From time to time, Streetwise Reports LLC and its directors, officers, employees or members of their families, as well as persons interviewed for articles on the site, may have a long or short position in securities mentioned and may make purchases and/or sales of those securities in the open market or otherwise.
From time to time, Streetwise Reports LLC and its directors, officers, employees or members of their families, as well as persons interviewed for articles on the site, may have a long or short position in securities mentioned and may make purchases and/or sales of those securities in the open market or otherwise.
This is an edited version of the original and is republished here courtesy of The Gold Report
Harry Dent: How to Prosper in the Coming Downturn
17.01.2014
There's little happy talk in Harry
Dent's new book, "The Demographic Cliff: How to Survive and Prosper
During the Great Deflation of 2014–2019," yet the author sees incredible
opportunities for the investors and businesses that see this crisis coming.
The founder of Dent Research relies strongly on demographic statistics and
trends to predict a crash starting in early 2014 and lasting into 2015 or 2016,
which will make 2008 look like a mere tumble. In this interview with The Gold Report, he delves into the
economic implications of Baby Boomers aging around the world, and discusses
strategies for investors to protect themselves.
The Gold Report: In your latest book, "The
Demographic Cliff: How to Survive and Prosper During the Great Deflation of
2014–2019," you write about the aging of the Baby Boomers and the wave
of Gen-X'ers that follows. What does that tell you about the next five years?
Harry Dent: I discovered this relationship, which
I call the spending wave, in 1988. Peak spending happens at about age 46 in
the U.S., Japan and most developed countries. That is when a generation will
earn, spend and borrow the most money. After that age, spending declines.
More than 20 years
ago, we predicted Japanese spending would peak in the late 1980s, and U.S.
spending around 2007. Now, Europe is hitting its demographic peak and will
start dropping off. The drop off will be especially steep in Germany, the
United Kingdom, Austria and Switzerland—some of the strongest economies in
Europe. How will Europe's rebound continue with these countries plunging in
the years ahead?
TGR: Much of Germany's economic strength is
based on exports. Would that protect Germany through the decline?
HD: Not really. Slower spending in the
rest of the world will mean fewer exports. Take autos, one of Germany's
strongest industries. Automobiles are the last thing to peak in the
demographic lifecycle, around age 53. What happens when those sales are off
around the world in the years ahead? Germany is doing everything right, but
you can't fight aging.
TGR: Another wealth transfer scenario being
discussed is people moving from rural areas to cities, and the subsequent
development of a middle class, China being one example. That middle class is
driving toward consumer products, including cars. Could strong exports to
China help Germany?
HD: China is the second biggest car market
in the world and the second largest economy. China has overexpanded
everything and moved people from rural to urban areas two to three times
faster than any country in history. I think that will backfire. China has big
bubbles in real estate—24% vacancy in condos. If the U.S is printing money,
China is printing condos! I think China will fall like an elephant in the
next couple of years.
It will be hard for
Germany as an exporter to do well in a world where lower commodity prices are
hurting emerging countries, and demographics are pointing down, hurting
developed countries.
TGR: But people still need and want
consumer products.
HD: Let me put you in a wealthy Chinese
person's shoes. The top 10% of people in China control 60% of income and
almost that much of the spending. They have invested almost all of their
money in real estate in China, which is three times as overvalued as
California was at the top of that bubble. Do you think those people are going
to be buying Mercedes when real estate crashes and their wealth suddenly
vaporizes?
TGR: You're heading to Australia soon. What
do that nation's demographics tell you?
HD: It's the golden country. Its real
estate is some of the most overvalued in the developed world, only after
London. It has high export exposure to China and Korea, but it has lower
debt—30% of gross domestic product, excluding consumer mortgages and such. It
has high immigration, which may get higher when the crisis hits at first from
Asia and China. Its population is now 23 million. That could grow 60–70% in
the decades ahead—no other developed country is looking at that type of
growth in this new era of aging economies.
Australia is the
developed, wealthy country that could get hit the least hard in the crisis
and could grow for decades to follow. If I could choose one country to live
in during the downturn and for the decade to follow, I'd be in Australia. But
it is exposed to high real estate valuations, falling commodity prices (on a
reliable 30-year cycle we track) and on its high exports to China that will
crash ahead.
TGR: The Jan. 10 U.S. jobs report showed
lower-than-expected job growth and a lower unemployment rate because people
have stopped looking for jobs. Is this a new norm?
HD: Yes. Part of the aging process in the
U.S. is two-worker households where they get the kids through high school and
college and one of the workers decides to stop working. Some people drop out
of the workforce voluntarily, and some people just give up. In the last five
years more younger people have been giving up. But as we move ahead, it will
also be more aging Baby Boomers dropping out: second earners first and then
retirement. How can a country grow with a declining workforce? And countries
like Japan or most of Europe have much worse trends ahead than we do
demographically.
TGR: Another trend is Baby Boomers holding
on to their jobs past the usual retirement age. What impact does that have on
the economy?
HD: The average person retires at age 63.
Baby Boomers will stay in the workforce longer; this is already occurring in
Japan, which has aged earlier and faster than us. My prediction is in the
next 10 to 20 years we'll be retiring at 75. This is a problem for the
younger generation entering the workforce and it's why youth unemployment is
so high in Europe, the U.S. and Japan.
TGR: As the 20-to-46-year-olds move into
jobs left by Baby Boomers, will there be a corresponding increase in spending
on their part?
HD: Yes, over time. Young people start at
lower incomes, so it takes a while for them to amass financial momentum. In
between generation peaks, like 1929 for the Henry Ford generation, 1968 for
the Bob Hope generation and now 2007 for the Baby Boomers, there's a gap when
the younger generation is not earning enough to offset the decline of the
older generation. Eventually, they get strong enough and generate the next
boom. That next boom is from around 2023 to 2036 or so for the first wave of
the Echo Boom.
TGR: I read that the next generation will
reach its peak buying years in the 2020s.
HD: I'd say their trend will turn up about
2023. Japan has already gone through that. It had a smaller echo boom than
the U.S. and its echo boom generation is in a positive spending cycle into
2020; it's just not very big. But as I said above, the next generation sees
its first peak in spending in the U.S. around 2036 or a bit later, then a
final peak around 2055–2056 or so.
TGR: If the echo boom generation in Japan
isn't spending during its peak spending years, will Japan be able to sustain
any recovery?
HD: In Japan, the older generation sold
out the younger one. It had jobs for life and all sorts of benefits. The
younger people are not getting the same benefits. Some 35% of young males
have no interest in sex, dating or marriage; 41% of married couples aren't
having sex. They've given up. They don't want to have kids because they don't
see how they can support them. That only bodes for worse demographic trends
for decades to come. Japan is committing Hari-Kari!
TGR: To what extent is that trend of the
older generation selling out the younger generation occurring in North
America or Europe?
HD: It's not as bad in North America. We
had a larger echo generation than Europe, which had almost none.
The point of this
book is that demographic trends can only get worse as the Baby Boom drop-off
works its way around the world. Governments think they can keep stimulating
their economies until we return to normal. If they stop stimulating—and I
think they'll end up tapering to only a minor degree this year—economies will
drop like a rock, even in the U.S. and Europe. Stimulus has less and less
effect as it is artificial. Like any drug, it takes more and more to keep the
"high" or bubble going. Even a minor tapering will hurt the
economy.
TGR: What's the alternative? Do we just
hold this pattern?
HD: Stimulus works less well over time
because it is borrowing from the future, and the future isn't good. At some
point, there will be a crisis and two things will happen.
First, a lot of debt
will deleverage, giving relief to everyday households, businesses and
consumers in the private sector longer term, despite the short-term bank and
business failures. We deleveraged a ton of debt in the 1930s: loans were
written off; banks went under. The government wants to avoid that, but it
does provide long-term relief and cash flow as a major benefit longer term.
Second, we will have
to reset our entitlement programs to account for the rise in life expectancy.
We would be retiring at age 75, not 65. That would allow the workforce to
stay stronger longer, people to earn longer, spend a little more and
contribute to entitlements longer before drawing down on them.
There is no way
Europe, Japan or North America can pay the entitlements promised to their
citizens. The next generation is smaller. The entitlement deficits only grow
for decades to absolutely unsustainable levels.
TGR: Is part of the reset telling Baby
Boomers they can't start collecting Social Security until age 75?
HD: Yes, and that they have to stay in the
workforce. The average retirement age is 63, and people live until 85 on
average at that age. To retire at 63 and have 22–23 years to play
shuffleboard is totally unrealistic. Even at 75, the life expectancy is still
13 years. That's long enough to retire, deal with health problems and be
taken care of by government, pension plans, Social Security, Medicare.
We've been promised
this, so nobody wants to give it up. No politician is going to campaign for
it. The only way out is to have a crisis, admit our imbalances are related to
debt, entitlements and demographics, and deal with them as we did in the
1930s.
TGR: Are we already in that crisis and just
not paying enough attention?
HD: Yes. Surveys show that 70–90% of
households say things aren't any better than five years ago. The stock market
improved, but wages are as low or lower. People are worried about losing
their jobs or making less money. We have a friend who's a handyman. He used
to make $27/hour, now he averages $18/hr. That's a huge haircut.
Among the top
10–20%, unemployment is 3.5–4%. They still make $100,000–150,000/year, up to
$600,000/year. They're doing better than ever because they peak later in
their cycle and they've benefitted from the stock market and quantitative
easing (QE) that has fueled it—"the wealth effect." Compared to the
average person, the affluent are earning way more than they have since the
1920s. That's another reset. You can't have the generals moving ahead and the
troops not.
TGR: How does the reset start? What
triggers it?
HD: There are a lot of triggers. The whole
financial system is so overleveraged with many derivatives backing up
everything else. The global system is tied together: demographics pointing
down in most developed countries, debt ratios more than twice what they were
at the top of the roaring '20s bubble.
All you need is one
crisis and the whole system gets hit. It melts down faster than the Federal
Reserve can act. The Fed is talking about tapering now. It would need to keep
escalating to prevent this sort of crisis, and even that doesn't work past a
point.
TGR: If interest rates stay low, what does
that mean for the bond markets? Lending? Financials?
HD: Treasury bonds are likely to head up in the
early stages of the next financial crisis, likely into around mid-2014. Then
they will go down again as we move into a deflationary stage of debt
deleveraging as occurred in the 1930s. Bank lending will dry up even faster
than in 2008–2009. Financial stocks will take the greatest beatings again
after rallying strongly for five years. Gold, like bonds, will likely rally
into the early stages and then collapse again as it did in late 2008.
TGR: In "The Bubble Booms"
chapter of your book, you write that major bubbles occur only once in a human
lifetime, making it easy to forget the lessons from the last one. Did we
experience that once-in-a-lifetime bubble in 2008 or was that just the
warm-up act for an even bigger bust?
HD: That was the warm-up act. What
happened in 2007–2008 was similar to going from the 1929 bubble boom to the
beginning of a demographic downturn and a debt bubble deleveraging. We should
have gone into another Great Depression. Why didn't we? Governments around
the world have anted up about $10 trillion ($10T) in QE—$3T and rising in the
U.S. alone. We've run $7T in fiscal deficits just since the start of the
Obama administration. It wasn't his fault; the economy went down.
TGR: So how do you survive and prosper?
HD: Basically, you get out of the way.
TGR: "You" being individuals or
governments?
HD: Governments have no way out. They're
checkmated. Individuals can protect themselves with several strategies.
First, businesses and individuals can get more defensive now. They can get
into safe investments and let the next bubble crash. Our target for the Dow
is near 17,000 on the upside, 5,000–6,000 on the downside. Let it go higher,
then go lower, then reinvest.
Second, look to the
dollar index. In 2008, the U.S. dollar index went up against other currencies.
It was a safe haven. Everybody thought gold and silver would be safe in 2008.
They weren't. Gold declined 33%; silver 50%. A U.S. dollar index like the
exchange-traded fund (ETF) PowerShares DB US Dollar Index Bullish (UUP:NYSE)
has not declined much and rallied 27% in the second half of 2008. The dollar
index could easily go up 20–40% by 2016 or so. You could make money in the
downturn without a lot of downside risk.
Third, if you're
really aggressive, short stocks. Have at least some portion of your portfolio
short in stocks. Peter Schiff and Porter Stansberry and I agree there is a crisis and
that a reset is needed. They argue there will be inflation or hyperinflation;
I argue that we will have deflation. If you can't determine which of us is
right, short stocks. Stocks don't like rising inflation or deflation, but
deflation is the worst.
Lastly, have
cash—safe, U.S. dollars. Put a percentage of each category in your portfolio
in cash. Or, keep some stocks that pay high dividends and hedge them with
leveraged shorts and ETFs to protect their capital value while you collect
the dividend.
TGR: In a deflationary environment, what
happens to interest rates?
HD: They again may rise in the early stages, but
they ultimately fall for years. Long-term and short-term interest rates were
the lowest in the last century for the entire 1930s deflationary downturn.
It's a great time to borrow for sound long term infrastructures and business
investments.
TGR: Gold likes it when governments print
money, and governments are doing just that. Yet, gold has been flat for 18
months. You predict it might fall further.
HD: Around $700/ounce ($700/oz) is a
certainty in gold by 2015 to 2016 and $250/oz is a possibility well down the
line by 2020–2023. Governments are fighting deflation. If government stimulus
fails, we will have deflation, not inflation. Our point was proven when the
U.S. escalated with QE3 and QE3 Forever, then Japan went off the reservation
with three times its stimulus, yet inflation dropped. Holy smokes! That
wasn't supposed to happen. It was proof they were actually fighting deflation
and losing the war.
It makes sense to
have a little gold or silver. There may even be a rally for Q1–Q2/14 because
it's been so beaten down. But there will be a drop to at least $700/oz in the
next few years, and keep declining.
TGR: Gold could also be considered the fear
trade, and the U.S. dollar the safe haven. With all these global crises,
wouldn't we see the U.S. dollar and gold go up appreciably?
HD: Yes and no. Gold is sensitive to
financial crises. In Q1/14 or a bit later, gold is likely to go up, maybe
back to $1,400/oz. When the crisis sets in and we see debt deleveraging and
banks in trouble, gold will smell deflation, and it will go down again, as it
did in late 2008.
TGR: You mentioned that sitting with cash,
specifically the U.S. dollar, is one strategy to prosper during the
deflation. Doesn't your cash deflate at the same time?
HD: No. Your cash buys more because prices
are down. Consumer prices, especially financial assets, real estate,
commodities, gold, stocks and beachfront property, go down. If you hold cash
during inflation, your purchasing power goes down. In deflation, your
purchasing value goes up. Few people understand this simple reality as almost
none of us were alive in the deflation of the 1930s.
TGR: In our last interview,
you recommended two strategies: 1) investing in sectors favored by technology
and demographic needs, specifically biotech, medical devices and
pharmaceuticals, and 2) investing in international countries that are not
dependent on commodity exports. Do those two strategies still hold?
HD: I would not buy emerging countries now
because their bubbles are bigger than ours. When the world crashes, they're
the tail on the dog and will go down as much or even more, despite having
good demographic trends. The time to buy these demographic sectors above is
once the crash bottoms in 2015 or 2016—when you see a Dow at 5,000–6,000.
TGR: Energy independence for the U.S. is a
current trend. Would energy commodities, specifically natural gas, survive a
downturn?
HD: Natural gas has moved counter to oil
for the most part. Natural gas providers' earnings may hold up better, but
their price-earnings ratios will go down because the whole world sees risk
everywhere. A general economic downturn puts pressure on all purchases.
If you are holding
stocks for dividends, yes, be in those types of sectors. But don't expect any
major sector to go up when the whole world is crashing.
TGR: Won't the dividends of
commodity-oriented, needs-based companies go down along with the rest of the
market?
HD: The best companies, if their earnings
don't go down a lot, will try to keep their dividends up to bolster their
stock price. The dividends will decline or hold steady, at best. However, the
price-earnings ratio, the value of your stock, can still go down. It may
decline 30–40%, compared to 50–80% drops in other sectors. That's the
difference.
TGR: The stock market has returned to
higher levels since the 2008 crisis. Why?
HD: Because of the government stimulus.
Without this massive stimulus, we would have seen a depression. Bank reserves
have gone up over $2T from almost nothing, all on money given to them by the
Fed.
TGR: What's to keep governments from doing
the same thing after the next crash?
HD: They will do the same thing again. I
differ from most people in that I believe in the broader economy. It needs a
winter season. It needs to deleverage debt, rebalance and reset entitlements,
to get real about the demographics. If we make those adjustments, we will
come out of this, especially when demographic trends improve again. We just
have to take some pain, and nobody is willing to take pain. As in 2008, there
will come a point where short-term stimulus will not offset the meltdown in
debt and financial assets. Central bank stimulus has created a whole new set
of financial asset bubbles that will have to burst. That is its consequences,
not rising inflation that most goldbugs (who do understand the financial and
debt crisis) warn about.
TGR: The Boomer generation is moving into
its retirement years. Will the pain and resetting last through the end of the
Boomers' lifetimes or is it a shorter, quicker occurrence?
HD: Some of both. If we get a trigger and
things fall apart, it will be really steep in the next few years. But the
demographic trends don't turn back up until the early 2020s in the U.S. and
elsewhere; they never turn back up in a lot of European countries. Japan gets
worse after 2020; China after 2025.
There will be a
reprieve, and then the economy will get better 7 to 10 years from now.
Between now and then, apart from government stimulus, we will have no growth.
This is true even for emerging countries. Their stocks are down more than 20%
since early 2011. Good demographics can't help them when commodity exports
are so important to their best jobs, industries and stock markets.
TGR: Should people be sitting in cash
waiting for the next big pullback?
HD: Yes or almost. Stocks are getting very
overvalued, very bubbly. We're not telling people to pull out of stocks yet, but
we expect to issue a strong sell signal between late January and early May.
My motto is:
Long-term trends are easy for forecast; the short-term trends and key trigger
points are harder. You have to make calculated guesses.
TGR: What are the technical drivers of that
expectation?
HD: Economist Robert Shiller recommends
measuring a stock's price against the average earnings of the last 10 years.
That indicator says we're as high as in all the great peaks except for the
tech wreck in early 2000. Investment advisers are 62% bullish, 14% bearish.
That's the most extreme I've seen in my whole career.
My favorite driver
is margin debt. It's gone up higher with every bubble. It will peak in the
next few months. When that turns the other way, it's over.
TGR: How fast will it turn?
HD: It turns fast. In 2007, it peaked late
in 2007 and dropped like a rock throughout 2008. You have to notice when it
appears to be peaking and make a calculated bet to get out. You'd rather be a
little early than a little late. Even in bubbles, stocks go down in a burst
faster than they went up as the bubble built. It takes five to six years to
build most bubbles. In a bust, those gains can be lost in 18 to 30 months.
We're not getting
out of stocks quite yet and certainly not out of gold. I would wait for a
bounce to start selling gold.
TGR: When you say "out of gold,"
do you mean gold equities or the commodity?
HD: I like to trade the commodity. We do
sectors, not individual stocks. I originally thought gold would go to
$2,000/oz, but it broke at $1,525/oz. That shouldn't have happened. Gold has
been wounded, but it's due for a bounce. The U.S. may have to back off of
tapering. Europe, and maybe Japan, are likely to increase stimulus again.
Gold will like that, at first.
TGR: Before it drops to $700/oz?
HD: How much of a drug can you take before
you fall down and hit the pavement? Stimulus is an artificial performance
enhancer. It makes you feel better in the short term, but as you take more of
a drug to keep from coming down, eventually you hit bottom. That's where
we're heading.
TGR: How high will gold go before falling?
HD: The bottom of that long channel
between $1,800/oz and $1,525/oz is the real resistance. I'm telling my
clients close to $1,400/oz would be a good time to sell gold. I would not
sell at $1,240/oz here.
TGR: Any other predictions or tips on
prospering during deflation for our readers?
HD: Businesses need to hunker down. This
is survival of the fittest. We need to eliminate inefficient, overleveraged
businesses. The companies that come out of this owning the market are those
that get lean and mean, even if their revenues, earnings and profits all
decline.
I'm not a bearish
person by nature. I've been bullish since the late 1980s. I look for changes
in cycles—up or down. As long as the cycles are changing, you can prosper.
TGR: Harry, I appreciate your time and your
insights.
Harry S. Dent Jr. is founder of Dent Research, an
economic research firm specializing in demographic trends, and editor of
the Survive and
Prosper and Boom and Bust newsletters. His mission is
"Helping People Understand Change." Dent is also a bestselling
author. In his book, "The Great Boom Ahead," he stood virtually
alone in accurately forecasting the unanticipated boom of the 1990s and the
continued expansion into 2007. In his new book, "The Demographic
Cliff," he continues to educate audiences about his predictions for the
next great depression, especially between 2014 and 2019 that he has been
forecasting now for 20 years. Dent regularly lends his economic expertise to
the media on television, in print, and on the radio, and is sought after as a
panelist and speaker for international forums around the world. He earned his
Master of Business Administration from Harvard Business School where he was a
Baker Scholar.
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